Holly Hooper: Hello everybody. I'm Holly Hooper.
Hayley Herzog: And I'm Hayley Herzog.
Holly: And we are…
Together: Cash Test Dummies
Hayley: And today we have Phil Schuman joining us. Hi Phil.
Phil Schuman: Hello
Holly: Our good friend Phil.
Phil: Well, that's nice of you to call me a friend.
Holly: This is the one and only time.
Phil: Okay. That is fair. I am responsible for you getting paid, so this is fair. Okay. I can be your friend today.
Hayley: Yeah, you're the reason we’re cash test dummies.
Phil: Yeah, that’s… oh
Holly: And by reason, we mean it's your fault.
Phil: Yeah. That doesn't make me sound good, I'll take it, I'll take the blame.
Holly: So we're going to talk today about a pretty interesting and popular topic, especially in the news right now, which is student loan forgiveness.
Hayley: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff coming up about student loan forgiveness, and it's all interesting and also confusing. So I'm sure there's a lot of questions out there and I'm sure we have those questions as well.
Phil: Let's do it. So what do you want to know?
Holly: Well, so there are a lot of numbers floating around there. You've seen $10,000, you've seen $20,000, you've seen income caps. And what does it all mean? It's all kinda overwhelming. So who is getting this forgiveness and how much?
Phil: Yeah, So let's, let's start with that forgiveness piece because the forgiveness pieces like the easiest part of all of it. And quite frankly, it seems like from the headlines and all that, It's sort of like the sexiest part of it, which this is the sad thing. Don't give me that face, Holly. For those who can't see...
Hayley: No, I agree. I agree.
Holly: Thank you
Hayley: No No Holly I don't agree with you, I agree with Phil.
Holly: You’re supposed to be on my side.
Hayley: I'm not sorry.
Phil: This is the thing though, is that once you get into the financial world, there are things that are just like weird… and I was gonna say weirdly sexy, but that's not the right way to look at this. There are just things that you're like, okay, I can see why that's actually kinda cool. And the loan forgiveness piece is what everybody has been focusing on and so therefore, people are like, Yeah, that's nice. And so what that is, is that for individuals who make under $125,000 a year or households who make under $250,000 a year, their households could be eligible for up to $10,000 in student loan forgiveness. And again, that's the part that's gotten the most traction. On top of that though, what happened for low-income students. For those who went to college and had Pell grants. So traditionally, lower-income students who are coming from households who may just not be able to afford higher ed, just by paying for it straight out of their pockets, for those lower-income families, they may qualify up to $20,000 of loan forgiveness. And all of these loans that are being forgiven are what are called direct loans. It's the most common type of student loan at this point. So most families, if they've borrowed probably within the last 10-15 years or so, they've probably got some direct loans as part of their loan portfolio. And they can have again that $10,000 or up to $20,000 forgiven, which is pretty nice for a lot of those families.
Hayley: Phil question from the audience. No spoilers, I'm the audience. What happens if I have a Pell Grant, or I received a Pell Grant and I only have $8,000 worth of loans left. But I heard I get $20,000 of loan forgiveness, now what?
Phil: Well, that's why I said up to! I don't know why I just phrased it like that. I just sort of like talk down to you on that one. It's a great question and that's the reason why they did put in the language that said up to because if you only have $8,000 left, then you're only going to get the $8,000 forgiven. You're not going to get $8,000 forgiven and then they're also going to give you that $12,000 you missed out on as part of some other direct deposit or a check coming in the mail or something along those lines. So it's basically covering up to either, again up to $10,000 or up to $20,000, depending on how much you have left in your balance with your student loans.
Holly: So you're talking about getting money back and how the forgiveness covers to a certain amount. But what about those people who had been making payments on their student loans during the duration of the pandemic?
Phil: Yeah. So this is the thing, you just use the term like that was the sexy part, which it was for a lot of people. I keep using that word, which is not a word that I should ever use. Again, we're an audio medium, nobody's looking at this so that's fortunate for a lot of people. But to answer your question. So if you've been making payments, which is awesome like what we've been saying since the start of the pandemic, if you've been able to make student loan payments, there's been no better time to make student loan payments because all of that money is just going to paint off the balance. You're not having interests acruing during this time because of the moratorium. But the nice thing is, if you've been doing that and you've been, I don't want to say responsible because for some families they just haven't been able to do it. But if you have been able to make those payments, you can, I don't know what you want to call it, but file an appeal or you can contact your loan servicer and asked to have that money come back to you because you may get those loans forgiven. So it's possible you could be getting the money back that you paid to pay off your loans during the pandemic, you could get that money coming back to you, which is pretty cool. Again, you have to contact your loan servicer and request that to happen. But if you do that, that could be a great thing to help you sort of propel your financial life forward.
Hayley: And more cool news on the moratorium, it's extended until December 31st, 2022. So from now until then, there aren't any required payments, but come January, tis time to pay those bills again. So don't wait until January, get ready to pay them.
Phil: How do you like it, you’re a few months into this job, not even, a few months into this job. You're a month into this job basically, and you just use the word cool to describe a financial thing.
Hayley: I mean, I don't know. No comment?
Holly: I mean, at least she’s not using the word sexy.
Phil: That's fair.
Hayley: I just agreed, I’m not using the term.
Phil: I will say I've been doing that for way too long now. I've been doing this for 11 years. I'm pretty sure I've used that word all 11 years because I don't know. I think there's an irony to me being the one that says it. Anyways. Yes. So that was the second part of this that was really important for people to know is the moratorium is getting extended. The moratorium has been going on since March of 2020 when the pandemic started, and it's been extended for a variety of reasons or whatever. And it's always been questioned like, when is this going to end? When are we going to have to start making payments again? And so now that we know that forgiveness piece, they also announced as part of that, okay, at the beginning of next year, people who still have student loans have to start making payments. And I'm going to guess that a lot of people will be like, Oh, that's not that cool because they might not want to make the payments. But what I will say, what is cool about it? Yeah, Again, I'm gonna run with that term now, what is cool about that is that now people know they've got, at the time of this recording, a little less than four months to get their financial lives in order to let them know, Okay, how do I afford those payments once they start back up? And that does mean like people should be contacting their loan servicer, just get the information on their loans, knowing how much they're going to start owing come January when they do have to start making those payments again. So what is nice is that people have the time to sort of find this stuff out before it is actually time to start painting again.
Holly: Yeah, and I think even if people don't call that cool, they can at least admit that it's important to keep that date in mind, December 31st, because after that, those payments are going to kick back into place. And especially considering that a lot of families may not have been able to make payments over the last couple of years. And that potential pool of money that they were using to make those payments may have been absorbed by something else, especially given the increased cost of living and inflation. So keeping that in mind and starting to plan for that so that you can start to reacclimate and put those funds to the side is something to really start to work on now so that it doesn't hit you as a surprise come January. And there's a second really important piece with that too, which is the new IDR, right? Income driven repayment. So income driven repayment is also changing as a part of this plan potentially, to my knowledge, it hasn't been 100% confirmed just yet. But there's the potential for a lot of different things to change. So feel can you go into some of the details with that?
Phil: Yeah. What I’ll say with this is I always have to get the caveat, I'm still learning a little bit more about this, how it's all going to work. But, in effect, like with undergraduate loans right now, if you're part of an income, I'm going to say income-based repayment, but there's also income driven repayment, IBR, IDR, all that kinda stuff. Regardless of what comes out of my mouth I mean it the same way and my apologies to those in financial aid who may be listening to be like 100%, not the same thing. I honestly don't care.
Holly: Well, they don't think that sexy.
Phil: You know what, That's fine. I've heard that lots of times in my life too. Anyways. So what I will say with this is that typically with undergraduate loans, the way it's worked in the past, if you're part of an income-based repayment, usually like 10% of your non-discretionary income, that kind of stuff is what goes towards paying off the loan, that's kinda where it caps. But under this new income income-based repayment plan, you're talking about capping that at 5%. Which would basically mean at that point that the max you might have to pay is half of what it currently is. And for a lot of families that could go a very, very long way. One of the other things that they're doing that I think is astounding and the part of this that I find most fascinating, and thing that I think could potentially benefit a lot of families moving forward, besides that is also the idea that the interests wouldn't accrue on undergraduate loans if people making efforts to pay off those loans. So one of the problems that we have right now, or what we see is we have these people who have like a lot of debt and there's no other way to put it. They just have a ton of student loan debt. They're the people that are probably having a six-figures is maybe a little bit less, but the ones that are always getting the national news attention to be like this person just can't get out from being underwater on their student loans despite the fact that they're making payments. And that's because the combination of their balance plus the amount of interests they have associated with those loans just makes it so that no matter what the minimum payment is on that income-based repayment, it's not gonna be enough to cover the cost of both the minimum payment plus the interest that’s accruing on it every single period. And so what the new proposal is saying is that if you're making payments on those loans, the government will subsidize the interests that's accruing on it. Now you can just focus on paying off that new 5% mark. And then not have to worry about interest accumulating on top of it so that you'd never see your balance go down. Now under this new plan, your balance will go down. And in theory, the other part that's nice about this too is if you do that, what's being proposed is that if you do that for ten years, your loans will be forgiven after that point. Which is awesome. And that to me, the big part about this and what ties into financial wellness is this is the light at the end of the tunnel for a lot of people because right now there are a lot of people who have these giant balances who don't have that light at the end of the tunnel. This proposal potentially provides the pathway for people to be able to see how they're gonna be able to get out of debt.
Holly: And I think that it's really important to drive home like what a big change that is, because again that is something else that has been halved because it used to be 20 years, correct?
Phil: Yes. That's how it used to be or that I mean, I guess that's how it currently is. And now we're talking about potentially moving that to a significantly less amount of time.
Hayley: Well, I was going to ask with a caveat of I don't know the answer. I truly don't know the answer, so I don't actually know if there is an answer, but these are all proposed things. So do we know when this could actually happen? Do we know the route that it would go legislatively to happen, which kind of takes us down a different route. But I just I don't know what happens from here other than staying updated, reading the news, looking for these things.
Phil: Yeah. So as of right now, this is how I understand it, so I could be a little bit off here, but all of this stuff at the moment is theoretical. It's the reason why, I know Hayley, you've signed up for the Department of Ed Newsletter and that kinda stuff. To me, it's why you haven't gotten anything yet because nothing is quite official yet, so they can't announce this kind of stuff. The plan is in place and so assuming it goes through, I think what they're waiting on is are there going to be any challenges on the legality of this law or sorry, not the wall of the executive order. If there are challenges to that, then we got to wait a little bit longer to find out whether or not this is going to happen. But once that gets cleared up, that's when the application is going to open up. That's when all of this stuff can start taking place. But as of right now, I mean, I don't know of anybody that's actually had $10,000 of loans forgiven or $20,000 in loans forgiven. All of that stuff is theoretical until all of the challenges and the legality of all of that goes by. And really the question is just like, how many challenges are there gonna be? Is there gonna be a challenge? And that's the part we just don't know yet. Although all over the place there are a lot of, you know, there are a lot of conversations happening about people challenging it.
Hayley: I will say from my own loans, I have not seen any change. I have not seen any balance go down. So I would assume other people, I know that I am the end-all be-all, but I would assume other people also haven't seen it yet.
Phil: We are just consistently monitoring your loan situation, Hayley. Because yeah, we assume you represent all populations.
Hayley: I mean, it's true. It's true. I am the American Dream.
Holly: Or a canary in a coal mine. I guess a glass half, full glass half empty.
Hayley: Thoughts on that being our intro song?
Holly: Oh, what's that?
Hayley: The canary in a coal mine song. Is that what it's called?
Phil: Yeah, it is. How complete sidebar here. It's very rare that a conversation about music comes up and Holly is not aware of music.
Holly: It’s true, I didn’t know that was a song
Phil: It’s the police, isn't it?
Hayley: I'm looking it up. It is. It is.
Phil: It's the police right. Or Sting are but I'm pretty sure…
Hayley: it is.
Phil: Nice. Yeah.
Holly: Oh, the Crane Wives did it. Apparently too.
Phil: Who hasn't done it at this point. And I'm just surprised that you don’t know about this.
Holly: I have failed you.
Holly: I understand if you need to fire me.
Phil: You know what, I'm not gonna make any promises or this podcast, but I will say that we will talk after this is done because, and these are the world's worst words you can say to anybody, I'm just very disappointed in you.
Holly: I think that's a third time you've told me that today. So at this point it just runs off.
Hayley: That's how bad for like 1:42. Like not bad record.
Holly: It's a good day. Good day.
Hayley: It's pretty solid.
Holly: Phil what you mentioned kind of rolls into a good question, is this going to happen automatically? Is there an application process? What did people in order to get this forgiveness?
Phil: Awesome question. So for some people it's going to happen automatically. The more I learn about this, the fewer the number of people I think that'll actually happened to. So I think for pretty much everybody, even if you think for whatever reason you're gonna get it automatically, what you should do is go to either whitehouse.gov or studentaid.gov and sign up for the Department of Ed Newsletter. It's going to be giving you information about student loan forgiveness and what that's gonna look like. And at some point what they've said, and I think they said sometime in October, the plan is to release an application form where you can go in, fill out your information, and I'm not gonna be able to tell you what information they're going to need and all of that. But you're going to fill out that application to apply for a loan forgiveness. And then at some point before the end of the year, assuming you qualify, those loans will be taken off your account at that point. But the important thing is again, to go to studentaid.gov, whitehouse.gov, sign up for the newsletter so that way you can find out when the application opens and what steps you need to take in order to qualify for forgiveness because yeah, you don't want to miss out on that. And that's gonna be the easiest way to be able to figure that stuff out.
Hayley: And while you're on the interweb, you're going to want to go to studentaid.gov anyway and make sure you have an account, and if you don't have an account make one. See your loans, what type of loans you have, the balances. You want to be as informed as possible to make sure that if you're eligible, you know what your loan balance is going to look like. And then the next steps, make sure you get that forgiveness
Holly: And definitely do that now. Because the last estimate was that it would take potentially four to six weeks to process the form or process the application. So if you're wanting to avoid making payments, again, come January when that moratorium ends, you want to get that application in by November 15th.
Phil: Good call. So what do you want to know?
Hayley: UGH I guess we should talk about taxes. Nobody likes taxes
Holly: Can we talk about death first? I mean probably not. Sorry.
Hayley: Again, we should be more morticians. I don't remember what the podcast name was, that it would only make sense if we were more morticians, but we're again, coming back to this.
Holly: It's like if the cash test went really poorly.
Hayley: We’re ghosts
Phil: So tax, you want to know about taxes?
Holly: Not really, but yeah,
Hayley: Not really, but yeah. Do I want to know about taxes. Is there anything to know about taxes? Because honestly everything is so up in the air about taxes for this.
Phil: So anything specific you want to know as it relates to taxes?
Hayley: Well, I guess we should say that there could be possible tax implications from getting this loan forgiveness. So the big thing is check out the news. Yeah, stay informed on your local legislature.
Phil: So this is the hard part right now to find out what exactly is going on. Because when the American Rescue Plan was passed back in 2021, I think that's when it was I don’t know dates anymore. It doesn't matter. Anyways, when that passed, what they did say, they put a provision that said that the federal government would not tax loan forgiveness or student loan forgiveness, which is great. The federal government would not do that. So if loan forgiveness came to pass, people would not have to pay federal taxes on that because usually the way it works is if there was loan forgiveness, you would have to pay income tax associated with the amount that was forgiven as though that amount that was forgiven was income. But that got changed during the American Rescue Plan. But it's still left states and local municipalities, and that is a word that I can now say because I've been practicing that many times over the last couple of weeks.
Phil: Thank you, municipalities. They have the ability to tax if they want. That's really simplifying the entire process and stuff like that. But basically states can just come out and say, we're going to follow the federal government's guidelines. We're not going to tax or yeah we are going to tax because we're not going to automatically fall in line, we're going to decide on our own what we wanna do. We broadcast from the state of Indiana. And so the state of Indiana has recently has said we're not going to follow the federal guidelines. We plan to tax any student loan forgiveness. Now in the state of Indiana, the tax rate is a little bit over 3%. So if from a state tax standpoint, if you have $10,000 forgiven, I believe the number is $323 is what you're going to owe on your taxes the following year. If you have $20,000 forgiven at $646. And then you've got the local municipality tax associated with it. And that depends on what county you live in. So really at the end of the day, I think for most people, if they're going to have to pay taxes on the student loan forgiveness, chances are it's probably going to be somewhere between $500 to a $1,000. Now, there are a lot of different thoughts about all of that. We don't necessary have to get into the politics and all that. But it does mean that people have to figure that out. It's a little bit of a shot in the gut for, you know, for people who were expecting that this loan forgiveness, it's still at the end of the day going to be net positive 9,000, $9,500 or more if they're Pell Grant recipients. But it does mean there could be a little bit of an extra tax burden on them the next year should they have their loans forgiven this year.
Holly: Okay. So just correct me if I'm wrong, but the way that I take that information is that when these families go to file their taxes next spring, they could potentially be hit with a bill or with taxes due for that amount. So while they may get this up to $10,000 or $20,000, and depending on their situation, they may actually have to come up with $500, $600, or whatever that amount ends up being in cash to then provide to the state or municipal governments?
Phil: Yeah. I mean, potentially. So for the most part, if you have your loans forgiven, you're going to have an entire tax situation beyond this, right? Like this is just one component of all of the other tax pieces that you have, whether or not you have kids, whether or not you are paying what do I want to say, like if you have a mortgage and you have to pay taxes on that, those property taxes associated with that, all of this other stuff goes in. But to your point, like this could potentially affect a family like if they're expecting to get a refund or something like that, it could knock that refund down by $500 to $1,000. And in some cases could take them over that $0 threshold where they go from getting $200 back to owing $300 instead. And so people are really going to need to pay attention to that to see how this potentially could affect them. So that's, that's a big thing. And the other key point that is, this is only with state taxes, so this will affect your state refund. It won't affect your federal refund because your federal refund is not being taxed again, because it's not being taxed at the federal level. But depending on what state you live in, again, for us, Indiana, yeah you're going to get taxed because of the way the state has said, we're going to tax you for this.
Holly: So like you said, like it's just really important to keep an eye on the news and keep informed because I mean, I know a lot of families where those refunds actually they use those to exist throughout the rest of the year or they use them for other different emergencies and things that have come up, to pay off other debt that they've accrued over the past year just for lots of different things. So just being aware and having an idea of what to expect, and then being able to plan for that is really important.
Hayley: Yeah, get that budget going. Start thinking about it. If you can pull a little bit of money aside so that way you can prepare for that. So if things like this happen and you actually really need your tax refund, it's not as big of a punch to the gut.
Holly: And speaking of budget, just going to throw this out there. But if you need help creating one, or if you have any questions or concerns about your finances and you really want to talk to somebody, you can come and talk to us. So our lovely office offers one-on-one sessions where you can come in and talk to us about those financial concerns or your questions or help creating a budget, or even just kind of identifying your financial goals. You can sign up for those. You can schedule those via our website https://moneysmarts.iu.edu/
Hayley: Definitely check out the website because now my e-mails correct on it. So all my fans can contact me.
Holly: Yay! And I finally corrected my signature so I'm in the correct position.
Phil: So you both have accurate information out on the interwebs as Hayley would say.
Holly: Yes, for the moment.
Phil: For the moment.
Hayley: Please don't stalk us. I mean you could put don't.
Phil: So I got to I'm going to turn the tables here real quick. We've given out all the information on the loan piece. I don't think there's much else that you could say. We're still learning a lot about this kinda stuff. We'll see what other bumps and hurdles and all that kinda stuff come out as it relates to student loan forgiveness. But Hayley and I know we've talked about a little bit this in our office, that's right. I'm talking to you here to see your face. Like you didn't mention, like you've got student loans, you're paying attention to all of this, all that kinda stuff like how are you feeling about all of this?
Hayley: Oh, I'm so excited. I am not a Pell Grant recipients, so I will get, I demand to get $10,000 because I have over $10,000 in debt. But I am so excited for it. And I remember when it was first introduced before all of this is happening. I was like, man, I really hope this happens and now it's happening and it's cool. It's very, very cool. But at the same time I will say, I'm a little overwhelmed because I am a person who goes to studentaid.gov and I play with the simulator all the time to get a sense of like, oh, what are my monthly payments going to be like after I'm done with grad school, all of those things and it's going to look so different once I get that $10,000 forgiven and if this plan goes into attack, whatever that phrase is. So I'm a little bit like, oh, I think I'm going to have to make an appointment with MoneySmarts to help me do math, truly.
Phil: You're going have to make an appointment with yourself in order to get this figured out. I like that, it’s meta in its own way.
Hayley: One of me is good Kermit, and the other one of me is evil Kermit, the Frog, from the meme.
Holly: It's amazing
Hayley: to clarify.
Phil: So one of the things that I would say to that too, because one of the questions I've gotten asked when I've talked with other people is like, how could this affect people on a monthly basis? And this question isn't necessarily specifically for you. It could be for Holly as well because I think this is sort of an opportunity for a lot of families potentially too… I always want to say the thing that I don't actually meet because I'm wanna be like right the ship, but I don't think that people have necessarily like fallen off during the pandemic, like intentionally or anything like that. Like there have just been a lot of things that have happened that could potentially just a derail people's financial lives as a result of just living through a pandemic. But what we do know is that like if you have $10,000 forgiven, we've just said like from a translation standpoint, that basically amounts to like $100 a month over the course of a 10-year a standard ten year repayment plan, and $20,000 would be about $200. The math is very rough, but I think it's just a good, nice round number to use for all of this. So for those people that are having forgiveness and we're going to ask you to Hayley, like you're about potentially to get $100 back per month. What could you do with that or what do you see yourself doing with that money to, I think we're mindful of this when people ever get refunds and all that, not to absorb this back into their lifestyle and create dependency on this newfound income. What are some things that people can do to sort of put themselves in a position where that money could be put toward good use
Hayley: Well, I know that I would definitely put that into my savings like immediately because I already have a mental and kind of a rough draft of a budget when I have to start paying back my loans and $100 into savings a month, it's like a huge addition. I mean, find the first month I probably would buy a pair of shoes. Let's be honest, I'm going to buy a pair of shoes. That's about the cost of Docs. I'm gonna get a pair of Docs. But then once I have the Docs, and I’m wearing them and they’re broken in and then I can start saving money. Because part of our philosophy is also to treat yourself
Holly: A little yo’ self
Hayley: I’ll treat myself. I'll get a pair of shoes. Then just like put that money into savings. And we know, we collectively know, and also to share some information, you should start saving as early as you can in your life. I'm 24, putting an extra hundred dollars a month into savings is going to set me up for a better and more sustainable future. And it will do the same thing for other people, especially if it was something that was budgeted and it's kind of like coming back to you in that way. It's not like you're taking $100 out of your grocery fund, your rent fund, because those are things you need to survive. It's like $100 that you plan to spend, but you don't actually have to spend that can then go into a savings account and set you up for when you want to buy two pairs of Docs. Or when you have bigger expenses.
Phil: Now that we see what your priorities are there. I think that's a really important point. This is another instance where this is money you've had to set aside every single month. Now, granted, there are families where there's $100 isn't going to go towards buying Docs and it's not gonna be able to go to savings. It's just to help them better get by every single month and we do want to acknowledge that
Holly: It’s already been spent
Phil: Yeah. But it's going to help them. But for the people where this money can go towards something else, as you said, like putting in his savings or saving for a kid's college if they want to do that or if they're going to go back to school at some point, like there are a lot of different opportunities that this money could be put to good use aside from just absorbing it back into lifestyle, except for that one time that you're going to buy shoes and then the time you're going to buy two pairs of sure later on.
Holly: I think that for those that are receiving forgiveness, you are going to see their payments reduced, and who might be able to take the full amount or some of that amount and put it into savings I think it's important to do that or get that setup in a way that is automatic and happens right away. So if you know this money is coming in and you want to put more in your retirement or if you want to contribute more to your 529, which is a college savings account, I would suggest you do that right away. So go in, increase those contributions before you actually start receiving that money. Just so that you have that setup because it's so easy to reabsorb that and have those funds automatically start going different places. We adjust so quickly to increases in income. And if saving is a priority to you, just doing it, setting it up automatically so you're not actually getting those funds in your hands first, I think is a really good way to set yourself up for success.
Phil: We've always had the philosophy that out of sight, out of mind tends to be the easiest way to save that. That is a great tip there.
Holly: All right. Well, thank you so much Phil, for joining us today and for stopping by and shedding some light on this topic. Again, I'm Holly Hooper
Hayley: I'm Hayley Herzog. We are Cash Test Dummies
Holly: It’s going to get worse every time I love it. If you have questions about personal finance, If you need help setting up a budget, or if you want to talk about savings account or anything like that, you can reach out to our office to schedule a confidential, free, one-on-one appointments. And you can do that by visiting our website, which is https://moneysmarts.iu.edu/. We will see you there. Thank you so much. Until next time
Hayley: I kinda think that worked.